Welcome to Hospitality 2.0 PC (post covid)
Nov. 3, 2022

114: Why working in a restaurant can be hazardous to your mental health.

114: Why working in a restaurant can be hazardous to your mental health.
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Season 1

What are the inherent risks of working in an environment where instant gratification is so prevalent, and what happens when the music ends?

Many people think working in a restaurant is a great way to rack up some experience and make money.

But working in a restaurant can also be challenging when it comes to taking care of your health.

Culinary Coach Simon Zatyrka joins Jim Taylor of Benchmark Sixty and Adam Lamb of Chef Life Coaching to answer the question, "How can we, as leaders, understand this unrecognized drive in some staff members, and what can be done to assist them in becoming mature professionals?"

Links Mentioned in the show:

To Connect with Chef Simon, click here

To find out more about Peopleful, click here.

To better understand the health and wellness trends in the industry, click here.

Turning the Table is the most progressive podcast for today's food and beverage industry featuring staff-centric operating solutions for restaurants in the #newhospitalityculture.

Join Jim Taylor of Benchmark Sixty and Adam Lamb as they "turn the tables" on the prevailing operating assumptions of the restaurant business in favor of innovative solutions to our industry's most persistent challenges.

Check out the weekly videocast on

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Benchmark Sixty sponsors this show; check out their unique staff retention solution.

In Partnership with Chef Life Coaching

Turning the Table is a production of Realignment Media.

Transcript
Adam Lamb:

Welcome to another episode of Turning the Table,

Adam Lamb:

sponsored by Benchmark 60.

Adam Lamb:

My name is Adam Lamb and I'm a career coach for chefs and

Adam Lamb:

hospitality professionals.

Adam Lamb:

And I'd like to introduce my co-host Jim Taylor of Benchmark 60.

Jim Taylor:

How you doing, Adam?

Jim Taylor:

Good to to

Adam Lamb:

see you.

Adam Lamb:

Great to see you.

Adam Lamb:

This is episode one 14.

Adam Lamb:

The restaurant industry as an instant gratification feedback loop, and

Adam Lamb:

this is our monthly back of the house check-in episode because after all, you

Adam Lamb:

can't turn the table without everybody doing their part to make that happen.

Adam Lamb:

And yeah.

Adam Lamb:

Jim, I think I kind of screwed up with the title of this show,

Adam Lamb:

, because it's kind of, I, I think ambiguous about what the intent was.

Adam Lamb:

So before we bring in our guest I wanted to kind of ask

Adam Lamb:

you one particular question.

Adam Lamb:

So, You know, I've had this suspicion based upon my own experience

Adam Lamb:

that my career has acted as an instant feedback loop for me for

Adam Lamb:

instant gratification, meaning.

Adam Lamb:

So it was a way for me to get this good feeling anytime I needed it by virtue of

Adam Lamb:

the fact that, you know, it's an industry where for most of the most of service

Adam Lamb:

staff, you know, you get paid every day, cash, money out, walking out the door.

Adam Lamb:

You put a great plate in the window and it kind of fills your heart

Adam Lamb:

because you know that that's fantastic.

Adam Lamb:

Plus the feedback that you're getting.

Adam Lamb:

Constantly throughout the night, a good or bad . Yeah.

Adam Lamb:

Yeah.

Adam Lamb:

And and I'm just curious because I didn't wanna make this kind of a, a

Adam Lamb:

universal experience, but I'm curious to know if you've ever had that that

Adam Lamb:

same feeling in so far as like using your career as a way to make yourself

Adam Lamb:

feel good either in the moment or, you know, maybe when things aren't going so.

Jim Taylor:

Oh, absolutely.

Jim Taylor:

I think there's, there's hundreds of examples that we

Jim Taylor:

could probably come up with.

Jim Taylor:

I mean, put the good, put the perfect looking dish in the, in

Jim Taylor:

the window, You know, recommend the perfect entree to a customer.

Jim Taylor:

Get a great tip.

Jim Taylor:

You're the manager of the place.

Jim Taylor:

You're hosting the party every night.

Jim Taylor:

Mm-hmm.

Jim Taylor:

, you know, you're the cool kid in the in town.

Jim Taylor:

I mean, it's, You're the cool kid.

Jim Taylor:

It's true.

Jim Taylor:

Right?

Jim Taylor:

I mean, I can speak from experience on that.

Jim Taylor:

You host you, you open up cool new restaurant in town and everybody

Jim Taylor:

wants to know who you are.

Jim Taylor:

I mean, there's.

Jim Taylor:

, it's a popularity contest in one way or another in that sense, right.

Jim Taylor:

There's so many examples of that.

Jim Taylor:

It doesn't have to just be the cash every day side of things.

Jim Taylor:

Mm-hmm.

Jim Taylor:

, it's, you know, there's, it's a lot different, I think, than the experience

Jim Taylor:

that people get sitting in a cubicle where, you know, once a month they have

Jim Taylor:

a little performance review or something.

Jim Taylor:

It, it, it happens every 10 minutes in

Adam Lamb:

restaurants.

Adam Lamb:

Yeah.

Adam Lamb:

A very good friend of mine who's.

Adam Lamb:

Who's gone on to have a very fruitful career and is now an executive

Adam Lamb:

chef at one of the biggest hospitals in Hawaii, You know, started his

Adam Lamb:

career in Chicago and where I met him and , he was such a freak.

Adam Lamb:

He was so good.

Adam Lamb:

And he took it like not seriously at all.

Adam Lamb:

Like, Dude, what are you doing?

Adam Lamb:

Like, you could really do this Chef James Shirley.

Adam Lamb:

And in a podcast episode, he goes on this little rant saying,

Adam Lamb:

you know, at work you could be.

Adam Lamb:

The hero.

Adam Lamb:

And then at the end of the shift, you're taken an L home by yourself to

Adam Lamb:

a crappy little apartment and da da da.

Adam Lamb:

And that kind of spur a thought at me, like, Okay, so why wouldn't you wanna

Adam Lamb:

spend all your time at work , Right?

Adam Lamb:

Yeah.

Adam Lamb:

Cause that's where you feel good.

Adam Lamb:

And, and there's more to get into this.

Adam Lamb:

And we have no idea just to put it out there.

Adam Lamb:

We have no idea where this is gonna go.

Adam Lamb:

And we don't wanna make anybody wrong because this show was establi.

Adam Lamb:

About solutions, and yet you can't really talk about a solution until you're

Adam Lamb:

really clear about what the problem is.

Adam Lamb:

So to that point, I want to bring in our good friend culinary

Adam Lamb:

coach Simon z Turka, who's joining us from we Pacific Coast,

Jim Taylor:

right?

Jim Taylor:

Yeah, yeah.

Simon Zatyrka:

Seattle.

Simon Zatyrka:

Seattle.

Simon Zatyrka:

Good

Adam Lamb:

morning, gentlemen.

Adam Lamb:

Gloomy, is it, is it gloomy out there, man?

Simon Zatyrka:

Let's see, one window has got clouds and the other one's got sun.

Simon Zatyrka:

So sorta

Simon Zatyrka:

I, old man

Simon Zatyrka:

, Jim Taylor: It's

Simon Zatyrka:

Seattle.

Simon Zatyrka:

Like you never know what's gonna happen.

Simon Zatyrka:

Just wait a second.

Adam Lamb:

Right.

Adam Lamb:

So if we, So there's a couple different ways that we could language

Adam Lamb:

this and I don't wanna muddle it.

Adam Lamb:

I want to be as clear as possible.

Adam Lamb:

So I guess I wanna start with the question, which is, Thanks to

Adam Lamb:

organizations like the Bern Chef Project not nine to five, and several

Adam Lamb:

others that deserve to be named.

Adam Lamb:

There has been a concerted effort to study the hospitality industry in regards

Adam Lamb:

to things like mental health crisis, substance abuse, because prior to almost

Adam Lamb:

just five years ago, nobody gave a shit.

Adam Lamb:

I.

Adam Lamb:

Sure people gave a shit, but nobody could actually quantify

Adam Lamb:

the problem because nobody was given money to study the problem.

Adam Lamb:

And if you can't quantify it, you can't study it.

Adam Lamb:

So these organizations have gone done amazing work to put

Adam Lamb:

together all these surveys.

Adam Lamb:

And again, it comes back to this truth that I think all of us know

Adam Lamb:

inherently, which is the hospitality industry has one of the highest

Adam Lamb:

incidents of substance abuse addiction.

Adam Lamb:

Sorry.

Jim Taylor:

Yeah, it's a challenging industry,

Adam Lamb:

suicide front and center, and just thinking about all the

Adam Lamb:

friends I've lost in my career.

Adam Lamb:

And so why do you think that is?

Adam Lamb:

I Why do you think that there is such a high incidence of these experiences?

Adam Lamb:

In this career field, Chef, Man, that,

Simon Zatyrka:

that's such a big question.

Simon Zatyrka:

But here, here, I'll, I'll dive off with this.

Simon Zatyrka:

I, I was a 19 year old college student that dropped outta college to hang out

Simon Zatyrka:

with a merry band of misfits every night.

Simon Zatyrka:

, I mean, come on.

Simon Zatyrka:

It's, it's community in the best and worst way, right?

Simon Zatyrka:

You're, you're like slinging, you know, 400, 500 steaks a night.

Simon Zatyrka:

And then at the end of the night someone says, Hey, let's go have a beer.

Simon Zatyrka:

And one beer becomes 10 and God only knows what else is happening.

Simon Zatyrka:

Sure.

Simon Zatyrka:

But it's, but it's fun and it's great.

Simon Zatyrka:

And, and let's go back to like the instant gratification of and, and feedback.

Simon Zatyrka:

Hello Adrenaline.

Simon Zatyrka:

How.

Simon Zatyrka:

Right, Right.

Simon Zatyrka:

Like, this is just boom, boom, boom.

Simon Zatyrka:

This is great.

Simon Zatyrka:

I mean, are you kidding?

Simon Zatyrka:

I, I, I literally dropped outta school a cook so that I

Simon Zatyrka:

could like, feel that every day

Simon Zatyrka:

Yeah.

Simon Zatyrka:

You know, and then, and then found that like, I had a, I had a group

Simon Zatyrka:

that like, you know, that were like, Hey, let's go hang out.

Simon Zatyrka:

Let's go do stuff.

Simon Zatyrka:

You know, not really pulling back the curtain for a number of.

Simon Zatyrka:

But that's, that for me is like the, the, the gateway to it.

Simon Zatyrka:

All people start to they, they have community that, but they also have like

Simon Zatyrka:

, I guess the, the anti community, right?

Simon Zatyrka:

Like the, the things that can go dark.

Simon Zatyrka:

I, I think it's prevalent.

Simon Zatyrka:

You know, I think it, it happens a lot, folks.

Simon Zatyrka:

They get into something and, and then, you know, the next thing

Simon Zatyrka:

you know, you're into other stuff.

Simon Zatyrka:

I, I think that, oh, it's just, it's just such an easy thing

Simon Zatyrka:

to, to slide off the edge of.

Adam Lamb:

So do you think that for a certain portion of us, our community, that

Adam Lamb:

that they're already kind of prewired for that type of behavior, given the fact

Adam Lamb:

that, you know, all of a sudden you've got this great feeling all night long,

Adam Lamb:

and then at 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock you punch out and you're supposed to go.

Adam Lamb:

And that's it.

Adam Lamb:

Like, I mean, is there something about us that kind of drew us

Adam Lamb:

to this industry because that's what we needed in our lives?

Simon Zatyrka:

I, I think that, I definitely think

Simon Zatyrka:

there's that aspect, you know?

Simon Zatyrka:

But I also think that it's, it's you know, chefs who are, who

Simon Zatyrka:

are pushing people hard, right?

Simon Zatyrka:

And so you, you want that, you want a.

Simon Zatyrka:

I mean, I worked for a chef in LA and on his wall it said, You are only as

Simon Zatyrka:

good as the last plate you served.

Simon Zatyrka:

Right?

Simon Zatyrka:

That's pressure to, to keep up with.

Simon Zatyrka:

So I think that yes, there's some prewired ness, , I guess if that's a word.

Simon Zatyrka:

But also it's a, it's a culture of like pushing people hard and at some

Simon Zatyrka:

point something's gotta get right.

Simon Zatyrka:

And I.

Simon Zatyrka:

I think I've seen some change in culture over the years.

Simon Zatyrka:

You know, I'd like to believe that, that that some people have seen

Simon Zatyrka:

the, the harmfulness of all that and, and are able to go, Gosh, we

Simon Zatyrka:

should be a little bit less chaotic.

Simon Zatyrka:

Right?

Simon Zatyrka:

We should start to hone, hone reign things in, I mean, myself, I, for me it was, it

Simon Zatyrka:

was like finding some organization in the.

Simon Zatyrka:

Sure.

Simon Zatyrka:

I mean, that's, that's how I, I, I swear to you like I, I started

Simon Zatyrka:

to manage my way out of the chaos.

Simon Zatyrka:

You know, I got tired of going to work and working for super talented

Simon Zatyrka:

chefs who had these amazing ideas, but could not get things together.

Simon Zatyrka:

You know?

Simon Zatyrka:

I started just going, Hey, let's make.

Simon Zatyrka:

You know, like, let's, let's have series of lists and like, let's, let's

Simon Zatyrka:

be organized and let's get planned.

Simon Zatyrka:

That's how I worked my way out of the chaos.

Simon Zatyrka:

But it's not, you know, it, it takes, it takes some time and effort.

Adam Lamb:

Jim do you wanna speak to that question because I'm interested

Adam Lamb:

in your insight in regards to why do you think that there are such

Adam Lamb:

high levels of emotional dysfunction.

Adam Lamb:

Yeah.

Adam Lamb:

In, in our industry,

Jim Taylor:

well, that, that concept of prewired for instant gratification, I

Jim Taylor:

don't know if it's prewired for instant gratification, but it's, it's definitely

Jim Taylor:

in countless cases that you know that I can both personally and with friends.

Jim Taylor:

It's definitely prewired.

Jim Taylor:

I mean, think about the people that the industry hires or looks for.

Jim Taylor:

Mm.

Jim Taylor:

It's outgoing, social, fun, competitive.

Jim Taylor:

You know, and I think the, for me personally, the two that probably stood

Jim Taylor:

out the most, that both helped me be really successful in restaurants and

Jim Taylor:

also put me in some probably not ideal situations, were social and competitive.

Jim Taylor:

Right?

Jim Taylor:

The social scenario.

Jim Taylor:

I get hired at a new restaurant when I'm, you know what Simon just

Jim Taylor:

mentioned about dropping a univer.

Jim Taylor:

I did the same thing.

Jim Taylor:

I was, you know, getting ready to pursue a degree or something, got a

Jim Taylor:

job because my high school grad date was working at the, the restaurant.

Jim Taylor:

She said, Hey, come work here.

Jim Taylor:

It's full of cool, fun people.

Jim Taylor:

Right.

Jim Taylor:

And I stayed for 20 years.

Jim Taylor:

Yeah.

Jim Taylor:

But you know, I think the social side of it was I wanted to fit in.

Jim Taylor:

I wanted to be involved, I wanted to be invited.

Jim Taylor:

I wanted to be, And if that, going to the bar after the shift, or if that

Jim Taylor:

meant going to a house party after the shift, or if that meant going to the

Jim Taylor:

bar cooler after the shift I was in.

Jim Taylor:

Right, Right.

Jim Taylor:

And so for me that that's part of it.

Jim Taylor:

And the competitive side of it.

Jim Taylor:

I mean, in my experience, and I know a lot of people, front house and backup hosts

Jim Taylor:

can, would probably say the same thing.

Jim Taylor:

You put someone in a social situation where they're getting invited to do

Jim Taylor:

things and they're a competitive person.

Jim Taylor:

You know, look out

Jim Taylor:

. Adam Lamb: You know, it's interesting

Jim Taylor:

of personality profile because I experienced this over the weekend.

Jim Taylor:

I, I spent last weekend in Nashville at a huge convention hotel.

Jim Taylor:

I had never been there before and I went to go get breakfast and there was

Jim Taylor:

this young lady at the, at the host or host station and very demure her

Jim Taylor:

shoulders are, B, you know, she's almost trying to hide herself from a physical

Jim Taylor:

standpoint and, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't look me in the eye, you

Jim Taylor:

know, like, one for breakfast, please,

Jim Taylor:

And as I'm sitting there.

Jim Taylor:

Enjoying my lovely buffet, hotel, buffet breakfast as they always are.

Jim Taylor:

right about nine 30 while the eggs are starting to harden.

Jim Taylor:

I see another hostess who's obviously coming on for the, for

Jim Taylor:

the day shift and she is bubbly and smiling and talking to everybody.

Jim Taylor:

And I thought to myself you know, maybe there's just, maybe

Jim Taylor:

she's the right person, but she's in the wrong position, right?

Jim Taylor:

Like, again, as, and the question this has come up for me is, As

Jim Taylor:

leaders in the hashtag new hospitality culture, understanding post covid

Jim Taylor:

that this, everything's changed.

Jim Taylor:

You know, do we have any any responsibility ethically or

Jim Taylor:

morally to support our staff?

Jim Taylor:

to make good choices for themselves, right?

Jim Taylor:

There's one thing to teach them, the skillset to do the job, and then you know

Jim Taylor:

what's going on in, in the store room, , you know, after a certain point of time

Jim Taylor:

or in the staff bathroom or whatever, because at one point I was there, right?

Jim Taylor:

So do we have any responsibility morally or ethically to mentor that

Jim Taylor:

portion of their personality and assist them to become mature professionals?

Jim Taylor:

So, It's not so much the instant gratification, but to start to

Jim Taylor:

understand that really the trick is delaying gratification, putting in the

Jim Taylor:

work in order to reap bigger rewards.

Jim Taylor:

Is that kind of, I guess that's the crux of it for me, chef.

Jim Taylor:

I

Simon Zatyrka:

think absolutely.

Simon Zatyrka:

We do.

Simon Zatyrka:

I mean for me, the, the hospitality industry, the restaurant

Simon Zatyrka:

industry, the kitchens, whatever, whatever aspect or, or arena.

Simon Zatyrka:

It was, it has always been for me, and it will probably always be community, right?

Simon Zatyrka:

It's, it's a group again, Man to Mary Misfits.

Simon Zatyrka:

But that, which sounds cute and fun and it's Peter Pan, but at the same

Simon Zatyrka:

time, it's like a group of people that have gotta go in and, and do a job.

Simon Zatyrka:

And if, if they're all linked of mine and, and are able to, to focus,

Simon Zatyrka:

then like things get better, right?

Simon Zatyrka:

Like at the end of the day, if we're all honest, it's all, it's

Simon Zatyrka:

about making a little more money.

Simon Zatyrka:

And so I think.

Simon Zatyrka:

If so, if a youngster who's going down a path that isn't great can,

Simon Zatyrka:

can get a little like shoulder and, and grab and back into the

Simon Zatyrka:

fold, like they're gonna do better.

Simon Zatyrka:

They're gonna, they're gonna progress.

Simon Zatyrka:

It's, it's they're gonna, they're gonna hopefully make their team a little

Simon Zatyrka:

bit better, which is gonna make the restaurant a little bit better, which

Simon Zatyrka:

gonna make the owner a little more money.

Simon Zatyrka:

And then we're all gonna keep kind of flourishing and then people start to move

Simon Zatyrka:

on in their career and understand that we all have to take care, care of each.

Simon Zatyrka:

Right.

Simon Zatyrka:

It isn't just the.

Simon Zatyrka:

, You know, I, it's not just, Oh, me, me, me, me.

Simon Zatyrka:

It's gotta, there's gotta be some, some, some hugs and some

Simon Zatyrka:

shoulders kind of pull people in.

Adam Lamb:

Sure.

Adam Lamb:

Yeah.

Adam Lamb:

But to your point, it wasn't that long ago when you were in a kitchen

Adam Lamb:

and there was a sign on the wall that said you know, you're nothing.

Adam Lamb:

Right.

Adam Lamb:

You're only as good as your last dish.

Adam Lamb:

Well, what the hell does that mean about me and the present moment, , Right.

Adam Lamb:

So there's this kind of, and I know this is gonna get tricky, man.

Adam Lamb:

It seems to me that as the dinosaurs in the, in the group that there's a

Adam Lamb:

generational question that that needs to be answered if we're gonna be effective.

Adam Lamb:

And when I mean effective, I mean like be truly great leaders and,

Adam Lamb:

you know, be there for our staff.

Adam Lamb:

Because I think the only measure of your, of your performance is how

Adam Lamb:

many leaders have you created, you know, helped to create.

Adam Lamb:

So Yeah, The,

Jim Taylor:

the moral and ethic thing, I mean, I think we have

Jim Taylor:

a mentor maturity for sure.

Jim Taylor:

I mean, I, I think the way, and Adam, you and I have talked lot about this in the

Jim Taylor:

past, is the, I think the way that I view it is, is actually more about protecting

Jim Taylor:

people that work in our industry from.

Jim Taylor:

Things that we all know exist in it.

Jim Taylor:

Right.

Jim Taylor:

You know, and I think whether that's, you know, I'm not a wage lobbyist,

Jim Taylor:

but whether that's paying people more so they don't have to work 60 hours

Jim Taylor:

a week and burn out and then, you know, find ways to, to hide from that.

Jim Taylor:

Whether that's providing, you know, different types of benefit or education

Jim Taylor:

or you all these different things.

Jim Taylor:

Because if we don't do.

Jim Taylor:

Then someone's going to either a government, another industry, another

Jim Taylor:

company is gonna provide for people in a way that maybe, you know, some,

Jim Taylor:

some people in our industry just don't believe it should be provided.

Jim Taylor:

So I think it's more about protecting the people that, that are gonna

Jim Taylor:

be the future of our industry.

Jim Taylor:

That's something that I, I mean, Adam and I have talked about that.

Jim Taylor:

That's something that I believe really, really strongly in.

Jim Taylor:

Right.

Adam Lamb:

Chef Tiffany Jeffries is chiming in to say we absolutely

Adam Lamb:

have more responsibility to help younger slash newer cooks navigate the

Adam Lamb:

potential pitfalls and pigeon holes we know may insure them or snare them.

Adam Lamb:

And thank you for that comment.

Adam Lamb:

And yet I know from my own experience from being the youngling to.

Adam Lamb:

Trying to mentor other young ones that sometimes, man, you

Adam Lamb:

just can't tell anybody shit.

Adam Lamb:

Right?

Adam Lamb:

Because they know . I'm thinking specifically of two guys who I knew

Adam Lamb:

at a same resort, sharpest edges in the drawer by far the most talented and with

Adam Lamb:

the most potential, and they had been.

Adam Lamb:

You know, either fed a line of crap or had been listening

Adam Lamb:

to their own press releases.

Adam Lamb:

But my advice at that time completely fell on deaf ears, and they both got bounced

Adam Lamb:

out for, for various, for various things.

Adam Lamb:

, the funny part of that is 15 years later, I'm actually coaching a mentoring

Adam Lamb:

one . Which for me has been an amazing experience and I'm very grateful for that.

Adam Lamb:

But I know at the moment, sometimes people just don't wanna listen.

Adam Lamb:

Jeff, have you ever had that experience of like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, Chef.

Adam Lamb:

I got it.

Adam Lamb:

I got it.

Adam Lamb:

It'd be good, man.

Adam Lamb:

I'll be good.

Adam Lamb:

Yeah.

Simon Zatyrka:

I, I don't have enough fingers to that man.

Simon Zatyrka:

, you know, I mean, it's something about horses and water.

Simon Zatyrka:

I mean, you can, you can take 'em down the line.

Simon Zatyrka:

You, you just gotta keep giant, you know?

Simon Zatyrka:

I, I think that, I think that, you know Somebody once said, you know, man,

Simon Zatyrka:

as the chef, that's such a great job.

Simon Zatyrka:

I'm like, Yeah, it can be great.

Simon Zatyrka:

But I think that it's, it's a certain amount of modeling, like the, the

Simon Zatyrka:

benefits, the advantages, you know, it's gotta look like a good job.

Simon Zatyrka:

Cause otherwise, otherwise, folks, they start to get lost.

Simon Zatyrka:

You know, They gotta, they gotta have something to aspire to.

Simon Zatyrka:

So I think for me it's, it's,

Jim Taylor:

it's, some of it is, you know, good role modeling

Simon Zatyrka:

and being.

Simon Zatyrka:

, you know?

Simon Zatyrka:

Hmm.

Simon Zatyrka:

Cuz I think if you, you can say anything you want and sometimes

Simon Zatyrka:

they listen, sometimes they don't.

Simon Zatyrka:

I mean, I had one guy who, like, I gave him the advice and he, he went off and

Simon Zatyrka:

he did something and about six months later he comes back to me and he goes,

Simon Zatyrka:

You said A, B, and C were gonna happen.

Simon Zatyrka:

And.

Simon Zatyrka:

God, A, B, and C happen.

Simon Zatyrka:

And he goes, I'm gonna listen to you from now, . You know,

Simon Zatyrka:

I get lucky once in a while.

Simon Zatyrka:

Right.

Simon Zatyrka:

But it's just one of those things like,

Jim Taylor:

I guess, yeah,

Simon Zatyrka:

they're not always gonna listen, but I think that

Simon Zatyrka:

if we, if we do our best every

Jim Taylor:

day, then you just gotta hope,

Simon Zatyrka:

I guess.

Simon Zatyrka:

You know, you gotta hope you're, you're, you're modeling

Adam Lamb:

the right thing, I guess ethically then I would then

Adam Lamb:

I would say listening to you.

Adam Lamb:

We definitely have a responsibility to, to coach and mentor leadership

Adam Lamb:

mature professionalism regardless of what the outcome is because

Adam Lamb:

the other side of that is at some point in their career, something's

Adam Lamb:

gonna happen to trigger a memory.

Adam Lamb:

They'll go, Well wait a second.

Adam Lamb:

Where else did I hear that?

Adam Lamb:

Because I've had lots of guys come back and go, or not guys,

Adam Lamb:

but lots of chefs that have.

Adam Lamb:

Associates that have gone on and become chefs come back and

Adam Lamb:

say, You know what, Chef, At the time I didn't, I didn't get it.

Adam Lamb:

I didn't understand what you were saying, but now I get it.

Adam Lamb:

And Jim, the reason I'm bringing this up is because there still seems

Adam Lamb:

to be some folks out there who are unclear on the concept that this is

Adam Lamb:

a new, this is a new dynamic in our operations in which we get to invest.

Adam Lamb:

Both from a time standpoint and an emotional contract with our associates.

Adam Lamb:

Way different than what it used to be.

Adam Lamb:

Right.

Adam Lamb:

Because it's chef related, you know, you're coming in there to, you know,

Adam Lamb:

either keep moving mission forward or you're, you know, you're either

Adam Lamb:

on our bus or you're out walking and there're that was it cut and dry?

Adam Lamb:

Yeah.

Adam Lamb:

And now it's.

Adam Lamb:

And it's sure some things forced our hand, right?

Adam Lamb:

Staff retention lots of people leaving in the industry, but I gotta think,

Adam Lamb:

man, at some point like this should have been our responsibility all along.

Adam Lamb:

Totally.

Jim Taylor:

It's, and, and it's, I don't know.

Jim Taylor:

It, it's not, it's not our responsibility to do it, but if we want the industry

Jim Taylor:

to continue to thrive in any way at all, we'd better do something.

Jim Taylor:

Yeah, I think I got, there's gonna be operators and there's gonna be people in

Jim Taylor:

our industry and that's that, that don't think that need, things need to change.

Jim Taylor:

And that's, that's fine.

Jim Taylor:

They'll do, They'll be on their path and they'll do their thing.

Jim Taylor:

Right.

Jim Taylor:

But you know, the, speaking about the, the labor shortage, for

Jim Taylor:

example, I actually personally, and this one's created a little bit of

Jim Taylor:

controversy in the past, and you and I have had a good laugh about this.

Jim Taylor:

Adam Simon, I don't know if you and I have talked about this one,

Jim Taylor:

but I actually don't think that there's a labor shortage at all.

Jim Taylor:

There's a retention shortage.

Jim Taylor:

Yeah.

Jim Taylor:

Because for the last 40 years or maybe longer, you're only

Jim Taylor:

as good as your last plate.

Jim Taylor:

Well, your last plate wasn't good.

Jim Taylor:

See you later.

Jim Taylor:

Someone else will take your spot tomorrow.

Jim Taylor:

Correct.

Jim Taylor:

Right.

Jim Taylor:

Whether we forced them out or they forced them or they leave on

Jim Taylor:

their own, the turnover rate of 110% or whatever it was annually,

Jim Taylor:

I mean, That's always been there.

Jim Taylor:

Well now there's no one to take their spots.

Jim Taylor:

So if we don't look at it differently in terms of how to retain people, mentor

Jim Taylor:

people, help people, you know, actually put them in a position where they can be

Jim Taylor:

successful, I mean, I don't know what that leads to other than a lot of challenges.

Adam Lamb:

Yeah.

Adam Lamb:

I mean, I don't, not even quite sure if that needs follow up

Adam Lamb:

because it's pretty succinct, right?

Adam Lamb:

Because everybody wants to make it up about one thing, but it's really,

Adam Lamb:

you know, and thank goodness, right?

Adam Lamb:

Thank goodness that we're in a position where if we're a mature

Adam Lamb:

professional, we have the capacity to be in, in, in the inquiry, step

Adam Lamb:

back and actually take a look at it without taking it as a personal.

Adam Lamb:

Right at that it's Oh me or whatever.

Adam Lamb:

Thank goodness that we're at a point where there are operators and, and folks

Adam Lamb:

like, you know, Jim, Simon, myself.

Adam Lamb:

We're gonna have a couple more here in the next couple weeks,

Adam Lamb:

which is gonna be amazing.

Adam Lamb:

Coming on the show, who, if they're not of the same mind, they're

Adam Lamb:

headed in the same direction which is our culture gets to be.

Adam Lamb:

A sustainability, equity and inclusiveness.

Adam Lamb:

And for a long time it hasn't been.

Adam Lamb:

So because we're a solution based show and someone's gonna go walking back into their

Adam Lamb:

organization and whether or not they're pissed off at, at who's showing up or not.

Adam Lamb:

Chef, what's, what's one thing that they can do to at least try

Adam Lamb:

to create a shift in their current culture such that their staff really.

Adam Lamb:

That they give a shit about 'em.

Adam Lamb:

I mean, I, I think the

Simon Zatyrka:

number one thing is the big C, right?

Simon Zatyrka:

Like communicate, you know, check, check in.

Simon Zatyrka:

You know, for, for me, it goes back to communicating community, right?

Simon Zatyrka:

Like, check in with your people and make sure that they're okay.

Simon Zatyrka:

I think that if everybody is, is, is kind of in the fold, they're, they're

Simon Zatyrka:

likely to be, to feel like they have a.

Simon Zatyrka:

To, to be, you know, they place where they can learn, where they

Simon Zatyrka:

can continue to grow, where they can make their paycheck safely.

Simon Zatyrka:

You know, I think that's a, a lot of it, but I think it's

Simon Zatyrka:

just really about good com,

Jim Taylor:

good, healthy, respectful

Adam Lamb:

communication.

Adam Lamb:

I, I love that you just throw that safety thing out there of kind

Adam Lamb:

of like, it's a throwaway line.

Adam Lamb:

Like say, Yeah, , you know, Well listen, in a world.

Adam Lamb:

Where the last three years has not been safe for anybody, right?

Adam Lamb:

I mean, when are we actually gonna get like, Oh my god.

Adam Lamb:

Yeah.

Adam Lamb:

Safety.

Adam Lamb:

That is a thing.

Adam Lamb:

Like not only physical safety, but emotional safety.

Adam Lamb:

And I'm not necessarily talking about, you know, patting them on the button,

Adam Lamb:

telling 'em how, how special they are, but, you know, treating everybody

Adam Lamb:

fairly with a, with a firm set of standards that everybody can look to in

Adam Lamb:

order to gauge their own performance.

Adam Lamb:

Right.

Adam Lamb:

And Jim, I, we talked about this before getting on the show, and I just wanna make

Adam Lamb:

sure that our listeners and yours know that this is not a generational question.

Adam Lamb:

Okay?

Adam Lamb:

Because everybody said the same shit about the boomers.

Adam Lamb:

Everybody said the same shit about, you know, Gen Xers the

Adam Lamb:

millennials, the gen sees.

Adam Lamb:

I got a prompt in my email box to submit a post to LinkedIn about how to,

Adam Lamb:

let me see if I can read this correctly.

Adam Lamb:

Something about how to, how, how to support Gen Zs in building skill sets.

Adam Lamb:

And I'm like, like, why is that?

Adam Lamb:

Like, why is that even a question anyway?

Adam Lamb:

And.

Adam Lamb:

I ask you, Jim, because I know that you're kind of the master of the undersell, and I

Adam Lamb:

think that that works really, really well.

Adam Lamb:

No, no, no, no.

Adam Lamb:

I'm, listen, I, I mean this, I mean this, I mean this as a, as a compliment because

Adam Lamb:

your way of being is such that being calm and understated, especially in an

Adam Lamb:

environment like this where there's so much at risk that one of the reasons

Adam Lamb:

I got so emotional at the top of the show was, you know, this just, just.

Adam Lamb:

Sorry, I've been sick for a couple days.

Adam Lamb:

I'm a little emotional . Okay.

Adam Lamb:

You know, this industry's been amazing for me.

Adam Lamb:

I love it.

Adam Lamb:

I love it.

Adam Lamb:

Love it, love it, love it.

Adam Lamb:

And I wanna see it continue.

Adam Lamb:

Mm-hmm.

Adam Lamb:

and I wanna see it get better and I wanna see it, you know, I want everybody back

Adam Lamb:

in the pool because Simon, to your point, it's safe and the water's just fine.

Adam Lamb:

But they're not going to based upon our ways of being, I put our arms

Adam Lamb:

around all of us and said, Yeah, man, we, we created this situation.

Adam Lamb:

So it's up to us to solve it.

Adam Lamb:

So Jim, for someone walking back in their operation after, you know, this

Adam Lamb:

little hashtag lunchbox live stream and they're look scratching their head

Adam Lamb:

like, How the hell am I gonna do this?

Adam Lamb:

Mm-hmm.

Adam Lamb:

, like, how would they take one step towards creating a more cohesive

Adam Lamb:

environment for their staff so that they know that they're cared for and

Adam Lamb:

that this is the place for them to be?

Adam Lamb:

Cuz it's not about money.

Adam Lamb:

. Yeah.

Jim Taylor:

Well, so I, I mean there's, first of all, I think what Simon said

Jim Taylor:

about community and and communication is, I mean, he's, you are bang on Simon.

Jim Taylor:

I mean, that's totally talk to people, right.

Jim Taylor:

Check in.

Jim Taylor:

A few of us that, a few of my former colleagues and I used to have this kind

Jim Taylor:

of running joke, but not really a joke.

Jim Taylor:

And that was that when you step on shift, whether you're the chef, the

Jim Taylor:

sous chef, the manager, Gm, the bar manager, the district manager, whoever

Jim Taylor:

it was, it's someone of responsibility.

Jim Taylor:

The kind of the running thing was that we actually used to ask each other,

Jim Taylor:

Have you put on your cape yet ? You know, if someone was having an off

Jim Taylor:

day or, you know, someone was acting a little off, you know, Hey, did you

Jim Taylor:

forget to put your cape on today?

Jim Taylor:

Because, and this is a cheesy sort of thing, right?

Jim Taylor:

But the, the, the idea was you have to look for opportunities

Jim Taylor:

to be somebody's hero when they come to work in your environment.

Jim Taylor:

And so that's the cheesy version of it.

Jim Taylor:

But I think, you know, we were, One of the things that I liked that we were

Jim Taylor:

talking about earlier before the show was that, you know, the generational

Jim Taylor:

side of things and all the stuff that's going on in our industry right now,

Jim Taylor:

it's, it's nobody's fault, right?

Jim Taylor:

That this stuff's happening.

Jim Taylor:

It's, you know, Gen X was an issue, millennial was an issue.

Jim Taylor:

You know, Gen Z is, is now being called at issue and it's not their fault.

Jim Taylor:

It's just that our industry doesn't know how to deal with it yet.

Jim Taylor:

So, I guess my, my advice and if I was still operating restaurants, I'd

Jim Taylor:

go into the weekend thinking about, I'm gonna just try and come up with

Jim Taylor:

one way to help make those people, you know, feel better at work every day.

Jim Taylor:

Enjoy the job better, protect their experience, support them,

Jim Taylor:

whatever it is that I could do.

Jim Taylor:

Cause it's not their fault.

Jim Taylor:

They're, it's nobody's fault.

Adam Lamb:

Right.

Adam Lamb:

And in doing research for this particular episode, I came across

Adam Lamb:

a new tab that I didn't see before at the Burn Chef Project.

Adam Lamb:

So they partnered with this organization called People Full, Please to Announce

Adam Lamb:

it has partnered with people full to offer a powerful data insight tool

Adam Lamb:

designed for the first time to show you where your biggest fires are in terms

Adam Lamb:

of health, culture, and wellbeing, and accurately demonstrate the costs

Adam Lamb:

associated by not addressing these areas.

Adam Lamb:

So, People.

Adam Lamb:

So they answer two fundamental questions.

Adam Lamb:

How psychologically fit are my people?

Adam Lamb:

Can they perform at their best?

Adam Lamb:

And is our working environment designed to support excellent performance?

Adam Lamb:

And for those of you who are interested in this, I'm gonna make sure that the

Adam Lamb:

link is in the show notes because you can book a free demo and any tool

Adam Lamb:

that you can deploy to make sure or towards the end of like making sure

Adam Lamb:

that you have a cohesive, supportive.

Adam Lamb:

I think is powerful because we all have blind spots.

Adam Lamb:

Right.

Adam Lamb:

And so before we leave, I just wanted to say thank you so much for Jemiah,

Adam Lamb:

Aaron Fish, Chef Tiffany and all the other listeners who supported

Adam Lamb:

us by by checking out the livestream and you know, throwing their 2

Adam Lamb:

cents in with a chat because it helps Des spice up the conversation.

Adam Lamb:

Chef Simon.

Adam Lamb:

How can people get ahold of you?

Adam Lamb:

Because we never, like we launched right into this.

Adam Lamb:

I didn't do an intro for you or anything, man, so I apologize.

Simon Zatyrka:

I mean, LinkedIn's pretty easy.

Simon Zatyrka:

But to spell, my last name is Z A t Y L R K A.

Simon Zatyrka:

The other one is my new website and it is www.culinarymechanic.com.

Adam Lamb:

There you go.

Adam Lamb:

Culinary mechanic.

Adam Lamb:

I love that brother.

Simon Zatyrka:

Nice.

Simon Zatyrka:

Yeah, I'm trying to tear it apart and put it back together faster and smoother.

Adam Lamb:

Don't we know that?

Adam Lamb:

Don't get paralyzed by the analysis.

Adam Lamb:

My brother, some, you know, done is better than perfect from what I understand.

Adam Lamb:

Someone told me that.

Adam Lamb:

Yep.

Adam Lamb:

Jim, any final words for us?

Adam Lamb:

I, I don't know, man.

Jim Taylor:

There, there's, there's a lot going on in my mind right now.

Jim Taylor:

Right.

Jim Taylor:

But I think just the, there's some loud and clear message from our conversation

Jim Taylor:

today, and that's just, we gotta take good care of the people working in

Jim Taylor:

our industry if we want them to stay

Adam Lamb:

so, And that's why I'm so tickled, you know, every week to be

Adam Lamb:

in this conversation with you because Benchmark 60 does have one of the most

Adam Lamb:

unique systems out there that has been shown to be wildly effective.

Adam Lamb:

And for more information about that, all you need to do is check out the

Adam Lamb:

show notes, all the links will be there.

Adam Lamb:

Thanks very much everybody.

Adam Lamb:

We could be doing this for another hour, but we respect your lunch break and you

Adam Lamb:

gotta get your ass back to the shop.

Adam Lamb:

So thank you very much.

Adam Lamb:

Really appreciate your.